8 second clip for your approval

So.... I spent EIGHT HOURS at the coffee shop today (this has been one of my two offices during the film - the bar at the Roosevelt Hotel is my other) working on this clip in After Effects. This does not include the 2 hours I spent last night.

SUCCESS!!!!

Or at least a decent facsimile of success.

Please tell me what you think - while this shot is in the film, I did not create this as a final....uh.... thingie.... for the film. It was only to learn AfterEffects a little better. I'm exhausted.

Also curious about the sound. I'm sure it's not perfect, I didn't spend alot of time on it, but I know NOTHING about sound so PLEASE let me know everything you notice about it.

Also the VFX. If you see a problem or something that could be better, please point it out.

Thanks guys,

-GageFX

BTW, when I am at the coffee shop, or the Roosevelt, or in any business taking up space, I always "pay rent". There are plenty of people that just get a coffee and set it on the table and never buy another thing. I get at least an item an hour, sometimes more, sometimes less. I can only eat/drink so much. The Roosevelt is another matter. My notes get interesting after the 6th Redbull/GreyGoose. And that's after my 6-8 Redbulls throughout the day. Shocked

The biggest thing I noticed about the sound was the gun FX. They seem to have a low frequency range, and are recorded from the wrong distance for that shot. Another thing to try with the sounds (to keep them from all sounding exactly the same), is to shift each shot around a semitone or two. You also need to make the shots sound like they are actually being fired outside. There are several ways to do this. You could either record elements outside, or worldize the elements you already have. Or you could try a reverb effect in the computer, but that never sounds natural.

Another general thing to note about sound design, is that your FX don't have to be what a certain thing actually sounds like, but rather what you expect it to sound like in the context of the movie. Sometimes you'll replace a rifle shot with a shotgun, because it sounds better in that instance. Perhaps you'll double the effect up and pitch shift the copy down several octaves. There are a ton of things you can do to make things sound more exciting.

You added the blowback effect, yes? Something about it doesn't quite work. Maybe it's not fast enough, or perhaps there's not enough motion blur. I don't know... something just looks off about it. The muzzle flashes are also too bright for a sunny day outdoors. I'd suggest turning down their opacity.
The gun smoke looks too dark as well. I was just watching a few different things, and in all of them, the smoke is light grey, not black.

That's going to be a pretty cool shot when It's had a bit of tweaking.

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Sandwich.

Nice!

Biggest gripe is the muzzle flashes. Pick a frame from a movie shootout in a similar location, and try to match that exact look. My guess is you'll need to make it brighter and much larger (like three or 4 times larger). Your flashes have a dark edge that seems off. Flames, glows and other light effects are always additive. (but smoke isn't, of course)

I like the smoke lingering in the air. I think it shows that the smoke isn't tracked into the shot, IE it stays in frame, even when the camera moves left. However, that could be excused as wind, so... not so important, I guess.

Agree about the low-pitched gun sound. Lacks "crispness" (which is a word people use about sound when they don't really know what they talk about, so... ). Fixitinpost said it well, it sounds like a gun from a different distance than what we see. I think the shot calls more for a firecracker kind of noise. Something more in the direction of a bullwhip.

The blowback works well, but I agree it's a wee bit off. Personally I think it's moving too far, but then again what do I know. Great job on tracking it in, and putting the background in behind it, in the end of the shot.

- Jonas

A second thought on the philosophy on digital muzzle flames:

You have to decide what you're mimicking. Movie guns, which mimick real guns, have ridicously large flames to make sure they show on frame. Real gun flames in broad sunlight are, as we know, boringly invisible.

As such, movie guns don't really lie, they just SHOW us the flame that real guns HAVE, but you just won't see it on a recording of a real gun.

It's kind of like using 24p video displays for computer screens when you film them - you're faking it, but only to create a vision that's closer to human perception of reality.

So, when you do digital muzzles, are you mimicking muzzles from real guns (in which case there would only be a faint smoke in your shot, no flame at all), or are you mimicking movie guns (that mimick reality through exaggeration)?

What you have now is an in-between.

Of course, I say mimick movie guns! Large flames! Smile

- Jonas

I'll add that the muzzle flashes still need a little bit of work. I think my main problem is that the smoke is black. You could probably set the muzzle flash layers to add or screen mode, and then probably reduce the opacity, since muzzle flashes in the daylight aren't all that visible. I'd also vary the opacity per gunshot to make it seem like the camera didn't always catch it in it's fullest amount. Does that make sense?

Also, I think the sound could be passable (but what do I know) except on the first gun's shots. They seem like they need to be louder and, this is where I reveal that I no next to nothing about sound, less bassy. Is that even a word? Basically right now those first shots sound like my car stereo when my wife tries fiddling with the buttons and winds up turning the treble way down.

Hope that helps. Other than that, I'd say it looks pretty darn good. Although I'm not sure what a guy shooting a gun is doing in your romantic period piece. That is the genre you're working in, right? Smile

EDIT: After looking at it again, I think the smoke could be turned white and the opacity turned even further down on it, so that you really only notice it subliminally. Especially on the first gun, cause I don't think it would produce that much smoke. Keep at it Gage!

The smoke needs to look grey. The sound of the gun hitting the ground needs to be tweaked. For that you might add a small amount of sound of gravel movement.

Other than that it's a great clip, Gage!

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Pontificatious Ramblings

WOW. Thanks. I was going to do my usual point-by-point, but there was so much, I'd be here all day! I think I'll just hang myself. I'm joking.

The sound.... good. I'll work on that distance sounding thing. I could only find two different types of shots online - .380 cal and a "rifle" shot. Now, assuming the handgun is a 9mm, the handgun and the 9mm MP5 would sound the same. And a 9mm is just a long .380 so the .380 is close enough to real for BOTH of them. BUT.... in the realm of CINEMA, I figured they would play better with two different sounds since people would expect the SMG to sound different from a handgun, and I only have two gun sounds, so it got the "rifle" sound. I will work on that. The "distance" thing is really something to think about.

As for muzzle flashes:

It is in my nature to try to make things as "REAL" as possible. It is something I fight all the time. I try to keep in mind that "yes, real guns dont so much flash outside in bright sunlight, but people expect it to thanks to Hollywood". The flashes I used were Action Movie Essentials and they are flash/smoke animations (I think they are filmed practically). I have their opacity turned down to 60% already and the CC REALLY affects their look. Makes them smaller and more prominant. They are also set to SCREEN which has reduced their size also. I will try ADD mode.

For the blowback, Andrew Kramer mentioned extending it a little farther than natural to emphasize the movement. Dont know if that hurt it. I didnt extend it THAT far... maybe a "real world" half inch further. Okay... I just checked on three different guns (real, not airsoft) and it depends on the gun. For an HK p2000sk, the distance I went back is correct, as well as for a Walther P99c. He is "shooting" a fullsize p99 in that shot so the slide distance is about correct. A .380 Beretta, on the other hand, doesnt slide nearly that far back. Anyway... I would say the slide distance is correct, just have to figure out what seems off about it. Oh... and the animation last only one frame. The biggest problem with the sequence might me the fact that he doesnt have any exaggerated recoil. Now, assuming a 9mm and a guy of his experience, he wouldnt have much more than what you see, but there would be some.

SMOKE.... as part of the animation, I'm not sure what to do about that. Keyframe an opacity animation?

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	The sound of the gun hitting the ground needs to be tweaked.

LOL. I was waiting for that. That is the ACTUAL sound of the gun hitting the dirt/sand ground. lol. But I do agree that it doesnt sound right.

I think I need to pull up my film's firearms training BTS footage (stills above) and see what the slide racking frame looks like. I think I also need to find somemore gun sounds, and then maybe make the MP5 FULL auto instead of semi. But he is shooting in semi so his gun movements might not look right in FULL. We'll see.

BTW, Will, the actor here, is the crazy gun guy in the film and he was not able to make ANY of the firearms training, and he has never shot a real gun before. Had never HELD one before that day. I just want to point out that his FORM and HANDLING are PERFECT. I trained him for about 5 minutes that day and he practiced for about 30 minutes before we got to him. (He was just BG in that scene, but kicked so much ass I had to focus on him at leat a little.) WTG, Will. GREAT actor. I really want to work with him again...and he's a great guy, but he's one of the guys that F*ed me near the end of production. I guess lock him into a contract for the next one, but he is great. Anyway....

Thanks guys, please keep the comments coming. AND if anyone wants to see the dirtiest, grossest, messiest, F*ed up AEP ever, let me know. The file for this shot is UGLY!

-GageFX

Also.... (sorry).... notice that the muzzle flash does not ACTUALLY happen in the same frame as the slide rack. And just an FYI, the gun in the first pic is a 9mm Sig and a .40cal HK in the second.

-GageFX

try leaving the flashes on screen mode and turning the opacity down to about 20-30. And the smoke, invert to white, set to screen mode, and turn the opacity down to around 10% of what you have.

as for sound effects, there's a site called something like sounddogs.com or something to that effect, that is an awesome resource. I don't think they're royalty free, but they might be.

yep. http://www.sounddogs.com is the site.

here's a quick one I found on there, but there's a huge selection.

http://www.sounddogs.com/previews/2718/mp3/463707_SOUNDDOGS_Gu.mp3

they're usually pretty descriptive about the sound, so you might be able to find ones using the gun type as keyword.

I like the flashes myself, not the smoke though.

A couple things about the sound, that submachinegun sounds like a 20mm cannon fired from a distance and those birds would stop chirping after the first shot.

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Joe
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Spill the Blood!!!

Ikes. That gun sound you linked to, DJ, that gun must be HUGE. I'll check out the site... I'm not at a point to buy any sounds right now, so I'm stuck using free stuff. (I'm currently browsing sounddogs...looks like I can DL some of the previews just to use for tests.)

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	And the smoke, invert to white, set to screen mode, and turn the opacity down to around 10% of what you have.

The smoke is part of the flash animation. I dont know how to seperate and do this. (I'm not up for another 8 hour day of trying to figure out AE.)

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	A couple things about the sound, that submachinegun sounds like a 20mm cannon fired from a distance and those birds would stop chirping after the first shot.

LOL.

The sounds I have layered:

Original
birds (lower db)
birds
gentle breeze
helicopters in distance
footsteps
MP5 fire
empty chamber clicks
handgun fire

I left me talking at the end cause I thought it made it sound more real as opposed to just a sterile, SoundFX environment.

I guess the footsteps sounded okay?

Yesterday at the coffeeshop, there is this....uh....nice man who cajoled me into playing the clip for him and the first thing he said was "wouldnt those birds fly away when the shooting starts?" I explained that they are "Film Birds" and they are trained to not fly away just like horses are trained to deal with gunfire. He didnt buy it.

I agree, and I thought about that, but I didnt think it was that obvious. Guess so. LOL.

-GageFX

hmm. smoke in the muzzle flash clip huh. did you select premultiply for the alpha when you brought the clip in? I'm assuming it came with an embedded alpha or a separate alpha sequence. You could try Remove Color Matting, and set the color to black.

Yeah, the footsteps sound great! Laughing

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Joe
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Spill the Blood!!!

	Quote:
	did you select premultiply for the alpha when you brought the clip in?

Whaaa?

	Quote:
	I'm assuming it came with an embedded alpha or a separate alpha sequence.

Double Whaaaa?

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	You could try Remove Color Matting, and set the color to black.

I will try this.

(Thanks Joe!)

-GageFX