WHITE RED PANIC short film

Trey,

The rolling shutter will cause the same problem at 30fps as 24fps. The limit of distortion is technically lower, but for all intents and purposes, jello-cam is jello-cam.

As for blurring, the rolling shutter isn't responsible. The rolling introduces slanting buildings/phone poles, crooked quick pans, and jello-cam - which really looks as bad as it sounds and should be obvious if you get it. It sounds like you're experiencing motion blur as a factor of shutter angle, framerate, and motion/panning speed.

(Dont forget partial exposure from strobes, and lighting flicker.)

	Quote:
	The rolling introduces slanting buildings/phone poles, crooked quick pans, and jello-cam - which really looks as bad as it sounds and should be obvious if you get it.

Here's what "jello cam" is......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qC0_nIUq9s

I'm impressed that Ayz was able to pull off that "Bourne/Narc cam" running shot with no jello cam.

	Quote:
	A lot of the takes of the shakier shots in the film were ruined by that weird wobble the rolling shutter can produce. Thankfully i had enough footage that worked.

I know that must have been a pain in the ass for the actor running over and over again to get a take with no rolling shutter jello madness.

Last edited by Ryanrjack on Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:15 pm; edited 3 times in total

It might be easier to just search the forum for "hv20" and "rolling shutter" rather than litter poor Ayz's thread with this.

Good point Gage.

I think 3/4 of my 3000 posts are regarding rolling shutter. Laughing

Sorry, Ayz.... back to the regularly scheduled program...

Ayz,

You shot White Red Panic in 1080i and converted it to a "720p master"? Did you do that in Vegas?

	Gage wrote:
	I think 3/4 of my 3000 posts are regarding rolling shutter. Sorry, Ayz.... back to the regularly scheduled program...

hey no worries. any discussion is good discussion. Wink

	Ryanrjack wrote:
	Ayz, You shot White Red Panic in 1080i and converted it to a "720p master"? Did you do that in Vegas?

I shot 1080 and in 24P, and then rendered out a 720P Master in Sony Vegas.

I have to admit, I'm still a bit fuzzy on the whole 1080i or 1080p thing for the hv20, but was under the impression that it shoots 1080p? Not sure.

_________________
AYZ WARAICH
N E X U S 6 R E P L I CA N T

WHITE | RED | PANIC

Just a couple things:

Regarding 1080i, "P" mode: To preserve compatibility with interlaced equipment, video is recorded and outputted as interlaced and can be processed in interlaced form if needed.

But then wiki bypasses the P mode for the PF mode on HV20/30 (keep in mind I am not personally familiar with the HVxx): To preserve compatibility with interlaced equipment, video is recorded and outputted as interlaced and can be processed in interlaced form if needed.....Despite the similarities between "PF" and "P" recording modes, it is apparent that their implementation is slightly different.

Regarding HDV 1080p: Officially there is no such thing as HDV 1080p, but some models are capable of recording progressive video using an interlaced carrier signal (see "F", "P" and "PF" modes above).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV

	Quote:
	the updated Canon HV20 which adds a 24p Progressive + film mode where the imager captures 24 progressive frames per second, but records to 1080/60i HDV using a built-in 3:2 pulldown (telecine) process, to remain compatible with consumer level editing suites.

I believe what they referring to is the 3:2 pulldown, if you scroll through the captured footage before pulldown you clearly see 3 progressive frames and 2 interlaced, after removal, (I believe) it's true progressive footage. But a combination of progressive and interlaced on tape (hence 60i). Same as the DVX in 24P (not PA) I believe. PF is different, the HV20 doesn't shoot PF as far as I know.

Or maybe I'm mis-interpreting your comment.

It's confusing because the camera shoots 1080i and 720p, and it allows you to shoot 24p in both modes. Isn't 1080i interlaced and 720p progressive? If 1080i is interlaced how can you still shoot 24p which is progressive?

	Quote:
	Regarding HDV 1080p: Officially there is no such thing as HDV 1080p, but some models are capable of recording progressive video using an interlaced carrier signal (see "F", "P" and "PF" modes above).

That kind of clears things up, but I'm still a little confused.

Ayz did you try and shoot 720p instead before you settled on 1080i?

_________________
STFU and make movies.

Ichy, you aren't misinterpreting me, but the Wiki entry. Again, like i said, I have no personal HVxx experience, but it looks to me like wiki is saying that HVxx IS PF mode. I dont know. Just reporting. That's why I included the whole link to HDV.

Ryan, I think there is a difference between "TRUE progressive" - 1080p - and progressive frames in an interlaced stream - 1080i.

All this is way to technical for me, though.
Rolling Eyes

	Quote:
	Ryan, I think there is a difference between "TRUE progressive" - 1080p - and progressive frames in an interlaced stream - 1080i. All this is way to technical for me, though. Rolling Eyes

I agree it's way to technical for my taste as well. Like you said I'm pretty sure there's a difference (a significant one) between "TRUE progressive" 1080p and progressive frames in an interlaced stream 1080i.

_________________
STFU and make movies.

My short version of the HV20 and HV30 24p issue, with a usable workflow woven in.

- 1920x1080 sensor, capturing at 23.976p.
- Stream records to HDV tape at 1440x1080 1.33 pixel aspect ratio, in a 29.97fps container (it records WITH pulldown).
- HDVSplit captures the 1440x1080 1.33 pixel aspect ratio in the 29.97fps container to the computer, captured as a 29.976 stream.
- In AfterEffects, using "Interpret Footage->Guess 3:2 Pulldown", pulldown is removed converting the stream back to 1440x1080 1.33 pixel aspect ratio at 23.976fps.
(You might have to manually select pulldown cadence if you get interlacing artifacts)
- In AfterEffects, you can add the interpreted footage to a 1920x1080 1:1 pixel aspect ratio 23.976fps composition.

Now you can use the composition as-is, de-noise it, or export to other intermediate formats as you need.
(maybe you should de-noise before using the footage in 1:1 pixel aspect ratio compositions? - not sure)

This was figured out thanks to several other sources.

weird, didn't get a email notification for the last few replies.

anyway:

	Ryanrjack wrote:
	Ayz did you try and shoot 720p instead before you settled on 1080i?

No, I wanted to start with the highest resolution possible, so stuck with 1080 right off the bat.

ClintTorres wrote:

My short version of the HV20 and HV30 24p issue, with a usable workflow woven in.

- 1920x1080 sensor, capturing at 23.976p.
- Stream records to HDV tape at 1440x1080 1.33 pixel aspect ratio, in a 29.97fps container (it records WITH pulldown).
- HDVSplit captures the 1440x1080 1.33 pixel aspect ratio in the 29.97fps container to the computer, captured as a 29.976 stream.
- In AfterEffects, using "Interpret Footage->Guess 3:2 Pulldown", pulldown is removed converting the stream back to 1440x1080 1.33 pixel aspect ratio at 23.976fps.
(You might have to manually select pulldown cadence if you get interlacing artifacts)
- In AfterEffects, you can add the interpreted footage to a 1920x1080 1:1 pixel aspect ratio 23.976fps composition.

Yeah, this is similar to what I did. Captured, removed pulldown, edited in a 1080 HDV timeline (1440x1080 1.333 PAR 23.97 fps), cropped down to my preferred SCOPE ratio, and then rendered out to a 720p file. Probably missed a step in there somewhere, but that's essentially it. So I guess that means I shot 1080i?

You'd figure having shot and released a short using this workflow I would have a better understanding of this. lol

_________________
AYZ WARAICH
N E X U S 6 R E P L I CA N T

WHITE | RED | PANIC