space ship model for a current video

I have always been, and remain still, much more a fan of miniatures than CG. Smile

	red and blue monkey wrote:
	First is too easy for camera moves and that’s a bad thing.

I utterly agree. Recreating a physically-based camera (and cameraman) in CGI requires discipline.
The problem is that "perfect" is easy to create while imperfect is harder. For audiences, the imperfections help sell the shot.
But that does not mean CGI should be rejected, it instead requires the artists to understand how to include it.

	red and blue monkey wrote:
	Second it’s easy with CGI to get 90 percent, there’s that last 10 percent that costs millions. And sadly most audiences dismiss it once the initial thrill of the movie is gone and it is judged on other merits. Blade runner will out live transformers.

I think models fail to get to 100% just like CGI fails. They are just different failures.
They fail in different ways. Models fail by having scale errors (thick paint). Translucent plastic surfaces. And narrow DOF in photography,
CGI fails by having over perfect surfaces. Mismatch with photographic elements. And sometimes just awful rendering which makes them not look real.

As an amateur, I think the trick is how to hide that last 10%.
CGI animators have a horrible habit. They think because they modelled it, the audience want to look at it. Look at it in forensic stupid detail. And the more detail they show, the less well the effect holds up.

An ultra-simple CGI model can be be utterly convincing if it is presented properly. My rules are:
*Naturalistic (human) camera motion. Including shake and errors.
*Motion blur
*Appropriate DOF
*Avoiding "look at me" framing.
*Finally, use Film-grain, smoke, dust, noise, darkness, rain, lens defects, bloom and other information-reducing tools to smack the CGI element into a photographic realm.

I still think the CGI T-Rex in Jurassic Park hold up better than the Hulk.

	red and blue monkey wrote:
	Third I can do most of this in my garage….sorry I love being able to do that. I look at a model shot and you own it in a way CGI never could. I love using smoke and getting in there on the model its fun in a way sitting at a computer drinking cokes all day never is.

Can't argue with that.

But I can counter. I can do this stuff sitting sipping Cabernet in my home office. No inhaling vapor required.

This render is a likeness of Voyager - which is the copyright of Paramount Pictures.

This was a pre-existing model I had. It took me about 20 minutes, to set up a scene and light it. Notice that the textures are set up wrong and it looks kind of broken. But with a hour or two of lovin' this could look quite nice.

red and blue monkey wrote:

Fourth CGI for creature is a must; I’ve worked in creature design and dealt with the nightmare of trying to get it to work. [I was the weird plant puppet in the second season of “andromeda” episode "Heart for Falsehood Framed"] And there’s no going back once that Belrog comes on screen. But remember that it’s in a model environment. To quote Alan Funke the right pieces melded together digitally.

For backgrounds I am a big fan of tiling together photographs of real things, tweaking them, and filming them (virtually) with a computer.

red and blue monkey wrote:

Fifth, motion control when you price it against CGI at the feature level is not that costly any more, for you and me it is. But it’s not as far away as before and there are more and more units around as well, for repeat shots product shots FX. Were starting to have some good results shooting incamera as the post tool we have are amazing. But on that note ive come to understand why multipass motion control is used and cant wait to try it.

But in the amateur realm....?

Don't you think that miniature motion control cameramen fall into the same trap as CGI cameramen? Doing stupid non-physical moves just so that they can show their great model so close-up that it ceases to hold up. ( Minas Tirith good. Barad Dur bad.)

	red and blue monkey wrote:
	Sixth, with models you can in a sense have a bad model shot and it will be ok, CGI cant get away with bad work any more, it has to be bleeding edge.

Here I disagree. Sure you can't get away with bad work. Who can? But you can do very inexpensive CGI. Stu's USS Hornet model springs to mind. It must be all of 200 polygons. But it holds up and meets the requirements of the shot.

In the end I think we reach for tools that work for us the best.
I utterly agree that both Miniatures and CGI have their own role and their own strengths and weaknesses.
The problem comes when artists use these tools incorrectly and draw attention *to* those weaknesses. The craft is all about drawing attention *away* from the weaknesses. Like a stage magician does to sell an illusion.

C.

Last edited by Carniphage on Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

	Carniphage wrote:
	Sure you can't get away with bad work. Who can?

I follow both of you. First of all - a bad model isn't any better than bad CG. It still doesn't look like a real spaceship.

But with a bad model, at least you still get something that looks physically present and photoreal - with bad CG, you get something from a computer game. So.... does that difference matter, as long as both things are still bad? Preferences, I guess...

I was waching Children of Dune the other day, and there are a lot of CG flyovers of the cities, and the lighting looks like something from a PS2 game. I think, in that case, I would've preferred bad miniatures.

- Jonas

I think CGI has quality has been in serious decline since "The Last Starfighter."

I thought it was telling that Pixar hired Roger Deakins to help them produce natural camera angles and camera moves.

I have done a ton of camera moves in CG and many of them I had to create frame by frame to achieve a look that did not look computer generated. Very tedious not to let the software do the 'tweening' for me. But then I have actually sat and hand painted 800 frames of video to achieve an effect in the past as well. Eschewing any kind of macro or automated tools because testing with them made the footage look canned but with the inexactitude of my doing each frame by hand, I got the natural look that I needed.

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Pontificatious Ramblings

If you can start a CGI rendering thread, I would gladly post some CG work.

But in response, first I’m not trying to convince anyone; I personally have a visual hypothesis and have spent the last year working on it, building miniatures for a feature last year, for rap videos etc. So they are getting cut into real time lines and have past the testing stage in a sense. How successful they are is at this point out of my hands but they are getting used so I’m happy about that.
My goals this year are to try finding in camera and other methods to be able to deliver shots in greater complexity and quality. Every thing I’ve posted was at the base line of 2k, film Rez. We also have a potential motion control test coming up so ill report how that goes
Again I’m not against using Digital means just where I can’t avoid it for time, cost or a needed quality.
And I stand by the idea that CGI is failing audiences, in that it’s reduced itself to pure spectacle and harms stories more then helps. I think this is one that’s over looked a lot.
We know that CGI is the main method used now days I do not doubt that, I stand by my analogy of all airbrush art vs. Oil painting.
I also think that audience’s seeing a bad model shot will forgive it easier then a bad CGI for the simple reason that it is a real object and something different. In a way that’s why stop motion still has appeal, and that corpse bribe was too clean in the movement so it started to look like CGI. Take a look at the recent “swedeing” started by the jack black movie. Now imagine their all CG, would they still be fun?
And the Stu aircraft carrier shot you mentioned was a real object not a CGI model. Its image manipulation, not CGI modeling.
I’m very much into the image modeling idea, the marriage of the real or modeled real into a digital form.
And as you stated that is a premade model, of a premade subject from star trek. Try this. Build a space ship from scratch, your own design and post that. Not only will it take longer but would be a truer response. The test shots I posted had also taken only 20 mins but the ship build took much longer then that, and was my own design.
But as I stated I’m not interested in converting any one, if CGI works for you, great! Please post shots, image or links to shorts etc and I will gladly look at them.

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[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

Started new ship after hours, this is just one of the ships for our own fleet shoots, not for anything offical yet. its going to be a sort of shuttle craft. i was inspired by fifth element again in zorgs ship, soviet design [lots of the upcoming stuff is going to have a soviet feel, like the caspian sea monster, hind d [mil 24] t34, t80, bmp, etc.]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NpGacOmSeHc&feature=related

Its also going to have a huge influance of the geebee aircraft one of my favs.
http://images.google.ca/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=9V2&q=geebee&btnG=Search+Images

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[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

Did a little more on it this weekend., next step is the rear section, cockpit, and bondo.

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[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

so heres the first pass with the bondo.

When im building for myself i try to add something i havent done before, in this case
ive move on from crappy modelling putty to car bondo. Its cheaper and easier to use.
im interested in getting better curved surfaces as well.
if i can, not sure at this point i would like to vac u form a few parts but i think that will
have to wait until next time.

and the second pass of more bondo.

_________________
[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

And the third pass with bondo...
sheeesh.
Im learning very fast why this is a slow but good material.
I think next time i could get away with a more carefully placed small amount

I remember a quote from the great John Knoll that he loved miniatures but hated the sanding, im getting his meaning now.
But i should have a nice shape once its all smooth

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[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

That's a lotta bondo.

_________________
Filmmaker Redux
twitter: "bozfx"

yep it is but its in thin layers so it isnt as out of control as it looks, plus you sand it down, and sand and sand and sand...

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[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

hey every one please check this stuff out.
indy four model work
http://www.fxguide.com/article485.html

listen to this podcast and check these guys out.
http://www.fxguide.com/qt/314/fxpodcast-new-deal-studios#more-314
there website
http://www.newdealstudios.com/
Im a huge fan of the work of HG ever since aliens 4.
if this doesnt sell you these guys did the halo game model.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvLqJA3A970

_________________
[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

ve made a time lapse of us building one of the models for the feature "blood a butchers tale". the final image is still wip i dont have any shots of the final model after we had shot it for the film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ro0YoWIFBS4

_________________
[Blue] SI 2k "Godzilla" SI 2k mini "Mothra" [green] Canon Mk II 5d "Mechazilla" Canon 550d "Gamera"
www.blastandboom.com low cost high end HD cameras.

WOW!

That's awesome.