the post production process (film 101)

this is my first post to the forum and I guess it should be the most stupid compared to the rest that will come much later... Laughing

I have never been involved in the making of movie that is supposed to be a movie blockbuster but I hope I'll in the future, that is if I have that opportunity...as a matter of fact, I am still a wanabe amogst you pros.

(a) The question I want to ask is this, what is the post-production-chain like 'after the shoot'. When does the editor come in, colorist, vfx artiste(s) e.t.c. I mean everyody involved in the process of the making of the film during post-production.

In Mark Christiansen's book 'After Effect Studio Technics'...he tried explaining the process...but he based his discussion much more on the issue HDR (high dynamic range) in film and not much of the post-production process.
Whenever I watch a movie, I am always so concerned about seeing vfx shots, the end credit/ending montage. The list of the people that were involved during the post-production goes on and on...and it baffles me so much. A good example is watching MIB's ending montage and the list of rotoscoping artiste were too many too count...what's really happening?

(b) Also, another stupid question I want to ask is, it is often said that, a vfx artiste creates a shot from shot (bg plate). Is this/these shot(s) first cut in the editing application before then transfered to vfx artiste to do his/her magic?

(c) Okay, one stupid last one...what do I expect to see in a VFX studio...let's say the Orphanage or ILM..computers and render farms only? do I expect to see only tools like, adobe after effect, photoshop and cinema 4D or maya. I ask myself this question and I tell myself that it has to be more than these. What about hardware gears for explosives, gun fire, squibs...I guess we are talking realism here in a shot. Please don't tell me to visit a vfx set-up to have an idea...it will take me another 5-10 years to have that opportnity...beleive me.. Crying or Very sad

Please forgive my dumb questions...I'll be glad if you guyz can please bear with me for a while...soon I'll change...

Regards,
'kk'

Hey KK, those are fine questions.

This is what I will touch on:

	Quote:
	Please don't tell me to visit a vfx set-up to have an idea...it will take me another 5-10 years to have that opportnity...beleive me..

But this is the absolute EASIEST thing to do.

First class ticket to a VFX house.

Search and you'll find more. While I was not a big fan of these last 3 Star Wars films, their behind the scenes documenting of it all was a great learning experience.

Search. You'll find more.

-GageFX

And..... WELCOME to the boards.

KK,

I worked in a VFX post house for 5 years as their FCP editor/photoshop guy. Here's the process from memory (left to work in the wacky world of advertising 2 years ago)..

This is coming from a UK commercials/VFX house perspective.

Pre Production: The Production Company/Director would meet with a producer and a VFX artist (in our case, flame or maya) and go through the outline and storyboard to work out the best way of shooting to achieve the effect they are after. This will involve creative suggestions from the VFX artist which often improve on the expectations of the Prod Co/Director. The VFX artist may also do tests at this point to reach a look everyone is happy with. Tests may be as lo-fi as shooting one of the runners in the building acting out for part of an FX shot or using found footage on the internet/Stills. This is so that everyone is one the same page with regards to what they expect to achieve. Often an animatic would be created (here I'm talking specifically for a VFX house - there may be several animatics created in different places - ad agencies to pitch to the client, the edit house, etc). An animatic is essentially a moving storyboard with particular elements animated with sound/dialogue to help realise the sequence. In 3D work, this was often done to get the timings right and then individual shots would be dropped into the edit later as they were finished.

Production: A VFX artist would attend the shoot as a supervisor so that the production company don't screw everything up by painting surfaces green for no reason, bad lighting, etc and get information such as which lenses were used, which stock, etc. They may also have a laptop with them to do slap comps on the fly and get an idea of how everything is working.

Post:

If on film, the footage will be taken to a film transfer facility and they will do what is called a "one light" which is a quick transfer of the rushes to digital tape with a very hasty color correction to acheive the rough look. The reason for this is that color correction is extremely expensive and color correcting all the rushes when they will not be used in the edit doesn't make sense. The rushes will then be taken to an edilt facility where they will be assembled into an edit. This is often done at offline quality for speed/machine capabilities. Once a final edit is decided upon they will export an offline quality copy to tape for reference and an EDL (EDL stands for Edit Decision List and is basically data so that the VFX/online house can frame accurately reload the footage from the tapes at broadcast/online quality). At this point, the final shots will be transferrred from film again and color corrected properly. The tapes from this will then be sent to the VFX house to be worked on. At the same time as the VFX house are working with the edit, the offline copy from the edit facility will be sent to the Sound Facility where they will be recording the sound mix to a DAT (Digital Audio Tape). At the VFX house, the EDL will be loaded into the hardware/software that is doing the VFX which will prompt the VFX guy/machine room to load the appropriate online quality tapes. If the work is compositing (which it often is), they will also take footage from the blue/green screen shoot and composite it with background plates, 3D work, etc and do whatever else needs to be done (huge subject - check out gage's link as an example). I once had to film some grapefruit flesh floating in a bowl to emulate amniotic fluid! (this was done for the Massive Attack "Teardrop" promo originally, in this instance for a car commercial). At the VFX house they may also do some final color correction. Once this is done, the DAT from the sound facility is received and the audio laid over the final edit. This is then laid down to broadcast digital tape which is sent off for approval (can't remember the name of the UK body - its as much to check that it is broadcast legal (colors, whites, sound levels, aspect ratio) as the actual content). If it is approved, the machine room (the windowless hell where everything is laid to tape) receive the playout times from the producers and play out the tape along cable to the broadcast houses who put the ad on your TV.

That's it from recollection. Its never normally as smooth as that and things often go back and forth to a degree. I'm sure others can add more info and may correct some facts I have misremembered.

Hope it helps.

_________________
http://www.robert-dee.com
http://www.englishmaninamsterdam.blogspot.com

I want to thank you all for the replies Smile

...they were where cool. Gage, you did send me a good link and what I am happy about is the fact that, they are videos and not simply pdf articles. What I dont know is, can these video files from youtube.com be downlaoded unto my hard drive or are there ways to get copies of these videos...?

Robert, your short article on the pre and post production process was a good one but as easy as it may be (just as you have written) so are they kind of difficult to understand. Tho' with my editing experience, I was able to grab somethings but sincerely, I have never been involved in a 'broadway' post-production before thats the reason why some of these, seems strange. These strange things is what I am going to expansiate below:

(a). During telecine tranfer, I understand how expensive it is to work with and that's the reason why most of us down here work with Mini-DV's and HD cameras for direct connection thru' firewire into our systems...but non the less, there is still use for shooting with film (16mm and 35mm). Just as you wrote (during post), the rushes, after shooting, are taking to a telecine suite where the film will be transfered to digital data/film strip (I guess to a format called the cineon format) and the most takes or the printed takes will color corrected. My question is, you wrote that "At this point, the final shots will be transferrred from film again and color corrected properly"...as I ask myself, why since the printed shots have already been digitized...cant the correction be done in the digital realm Exclamation

?

(b). Talking about EDL, most of my projects are edited and finalized on my intel machine or the one at the studio and there has not been any reason to use it or to put in a better way, as an amateur, I have not seen any reason to use this..lol! As a matter of fact most editors I have come across dont even have an idea what EDL is. My problem with EDL is, how are they transfered to hardware or software machines...it's simply a .txt file with markings of the project in it. Tho', till this very day, I am still finding it difficult to read an EDL file...can please expansiate on this.

(cI). After all shots/rushes has been put together by the editor, I think this final edit, should be printed to tape i.e DV, HD or is there a special format. Then this tape transfered to the VFX suite for the efx shots...what has EDL got to do with this.

(cII). From your message RobertD, what I dont understand is does the editor really record all shots/scenes to tape or he leaves the cuts just the way they are while the 'cuts' are transfered to the VFX suite.

(d). I think offline and online edits, has a whole lot to do with this. What makes the difference. I think for offline edits, the programme is basically edited with no retouches or whatever then for the online edits, the programme processed for a final output...am I making sense...I guess this is where EDL becomes very important...please explain better.

(dI). I am having problems reading an EDL file from my adobe premiere and vegas...obviously this is not jargons...lol! it has to be read by some kinna guru...right!!

This process is kinna complicated to me right now but I know with time I'll understand... Question

Regards,
'kk'

I use an ADD ON for Firefox called "Download Helper". There are all sorts of addons that will let you download a video from any site at the click of the icon at the bottom or top of your browser. That method aside (which is the best, and easiest in my opinion) there is this site Video Downloader and you copy/paste the video URL into the section at the top, click "Download" and it will take it from there.

-GageFX

Thanks Gage, this is is really gonna do a whole lot of good to me...I will visit the website now and download the programme and hopefully other add-ons for the firfox browser....

Thanks again...

Now you have answered your own part of the question I hope RobertD does his...ooops!... Shocked

Regards,
'kk'

KK, I was going to answer you queries earlier but I don't want to get bogged down in the traditional post process as that is not what this forum is about.

My recollections are how it worked when I worked in a traditional post production house and, if I am right, the intentions of the people on this board are to show how that process is pretty much redundant nowaydays (lets hope!) or at least can be circumvented with faster and cheaper evolving technologies.

Still, any advice I can offer on how you can move forward now, I am more than willing to help.

With regard to your questions - you really need to consult the DV Rebel Guide for a perfectly acceptable workflow.

a) a one-light is a very quick film to tape transfer for the purposes of editing, that's why final shots have to be transferred again at a level that can be color corrected. The one-light is a film-to-tape "offline" if you like that enables editors to make "selects" that will be used in the final edit.

b) An EDL is a deceptively simple file. At its most basic it contains in and out points and the tapes used. It can also include other information on basic transitions such as wipes, dissolves, etc. From what I recall there was a big to-do about whether FCP could export a decent frame accurate EDL that could be imported into an online suite such as a flame. As far as I'm aware, this is not an issue anymore. It may seem simple but the EDL is the lifeline between the offline cut and the final online.

c) See above. The EDL lets the ONLINE edit match the OFFLINE edit. An important part of this is making sure that the people who log the tapes keep consistent tape numbers and timecodes between offline and online copies. For your second part (cII), the editor is working with the same scenes/shots but is working at an offline quality. The tape logs/timecodes have to be the same for the online editor to accurately match what the editor has done.

d) You're missing the point here. An offline edit is a low-res version of the final cut. The purpose of an offline edit is to determine the finished edit as it appears as in and out points of shots and (sometimes) transitions. There are no retouches done to the offline copy except for slap comps (see the DV Rebel guide again). The bonus of this is that those shots (and frames of those shots) are not used in a final transfer from film.

dI) I can't answer this. I work with FCP.

Hope this clarifies somewhat.

_________________
http://www.robert-dee.com
http://www.englishmaninamsterdam.blogspot.com

Hi Gage,

I think we have a problem here...I downloaded the programme but I had problems, it will not download the flv video...I really dont know but I think I am the one doing something wrong..okay this was what happened...

After getting your message, I visited the link and I then downloaded the VideoDownloader programme. But I then realised that it works with a firefox 1.5 and above...so I had to download a newer version of firefox...I did this and my problem was how to use the programme i.e VideoDownloader in firefox.

What I then did was to right click the VideoDownloader programme (on PC) to 'open with' firefox. It did work but whenever I tried to download, a page apears and gives me an error message that I should try again...

Do you have an idea what I am doing wrong...I'd be glad if you can help Gage.

Thank you RobertD for the message you sent me...I am still trying to digest it....Thanks Tho'

Regards,
'kk'

PS: please note, I tried this with youtube.com...

I actually dont know anything about the "VideoDownloader" PROGRAM, I was just suggesting you utilize the WEBPAGE which will fetch and download the videos for you when you insert the URL into the form.

The Firefox ADDON that I use is DOWNLOAD HELPER. I've had a few addons to download FLVs, but lately none of them were working on YouTube. DownloadHelper seems to work everywhere.

-GageFX

wow! thats sad... Sad

. Okay if I may, how do you load an add-on in firefox...

please forgive my dumb question Gage, I did the right thing in loading the videodownloader but the problem I faced was it could not download the movie I wanted...

I tried it with iFilm and it worked...Thank you very much...

please forgive my dumb question Gage, I did the right thing in loading the videodownloader but the problem I faced was it could not download the movie I wanted...

I tried it with iFilm and it worked...Thank you very much...

RobertD, I still need to fully understand your message properly, I will be going into my library now to find more information...I hope I find... Wink

Thank you so much RobertD, I am begining to see the big picture. Like you said, getting Stu's book is really gonna be of great help. But like he said, getting Mark Christiansens' book first i.e After Effects Studio Technics, should be the DV Rebels Guide buyers first choice before going for the DV Rebels Guide...and this I did or rather have done.

I am still reading Marks' book and I am yet to complete it. After reading and digesting properly and most importantly practised the technics Mark has explained in his book, then I'll go fo the DV Rebels Guide.

I might come back to this question again but first I think reading the DV Rebels Guide first will be a good idea...well, maybe I will do that just because I dont totally grab what Stu has explained...or maybe Stu himself will be here to answer the question for me.

If you are reading this Gage, I want to thank you so much for the link to the downloadhelper add-on for firefox...that add-on or plug-in (lol!.. Laughing

) if I may put it that way, works like an automated video detector for webpages rather than you searching for the file an that page itself...I just love that programme it has even made me love the firefox application more. It even allows me to copy the link for the file I want to download and paste it into my download manager just in case I am not ready to download the file at that time or may the file if damn too large...Cool!! But my problem for this case is, how do you select and copy the file destination of a video file on YouTube.com or any other website that is not visible like that on the address bar... Embarassed

Thank you so much for link Gage. I am presently, doing a search on the internet now for more add-ons from the internet for the firefox internet browser application...

Thanks guyz...'kk'

	Quote:
	getting Mark Christiansens' book first i.e After Effects Studio Technics, should be the DV Rebels Guide buyers first choice before going for the DV Rebels Guide..

I do not agree with this AT ALL. To each their own, but The DV Rebel's guide is, in my opinion, absolutely indispensable to Rebel filmmakers like us, where as the Studio Techniques book is something nice to go with it and take VFX up to the next level. Unless you've completed a project at the DVRebelGuide level, I would say hold off the the more advanced stuff.

But, then, maybe you have. I dont know.

As for the ADDONS, just go to www.firefox.com and you will find many more than you know what to do with.

-GageFX

...Ugh!

..so you mean the two books are supposed to be to different books? Well, I think I must be the one making the mistake then.

Anyways, thank you very much for yor assistance guyz...I appreciate your time... Wink

Regards,
'kk'